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January 30th, 2008


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eris_devotee
07:08 am
Chloe - you know I love you.

It's a great sweater pattern, if you change it completely

Kim says of this sweater "Finally, if it wasn't made apparent by this post, this is an excellent pattern for modifying! I recommend it as a first sweater pattern, since it's so straightforward, and certainly as a first modification pattern, again because it's so straightforward. Rock."

What is so good about "straightforward" if the fit sucks and you need to do all the math yourself? Obviously, it wasn't sized properly because No Women have back widths equal to their front widths, not even women with mastectomies. Sure, a very small-busted woman might not notice the ill fit as much as a large-busted woman, but this sweater is a box with a tube on top - and that's EXACTLY how it will fit.

You'd think beginners would want a pattern that is, perhaps, less "straightforward" yet needs no modifications...

I think this sweater was a great try at designing. I don't think it's of publishable quality as a clothing pattern, though. Too bad crochet publishing standards are this low - otherwise the designer might've been inspired to do better. As it is - why bother, when this pattern is better than many others crochet patterns out there...?**

If I am going to take the time to make myself clothing, it needs to fit as good as something I bought couture and had tailored to my body. That, to me, is the whole point of making my own clothing - getting the quality I could not otherwise afford.

**Which might explain why knitting is "cooler". There is a wealth of gorgeous and well-fitting knit sweater patterns. Too bad crochet designers don't seem to have the same respect of their own art.

(39 comments | Leave a comment)

Comments:


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From:redandfiery
Date:January 30th, 2008 01:35 pm (UTC)
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I love how she says she wouldn't have gone near that colour yarn ordinarily, but it was on closeout. Her mommy really should have taught her the golden rules of sale shopping; it's only a bargain if you liked it when it was full price...
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From:eris_devotee
Date:January 30th, 2008 02:23 pm (UTC)
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Especially if it is yarn... because it's not just an investment of money for the materials, it's the investment of your time in creating the completed piece.

It's not like there isn't sure to be another yarn sale at another store.
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From:robin_andersen
Date:February 5th, 2008 03:36 am (UTC)

lol

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Why buy the yarn and spend the time to make it into something for _yourself_ if you don't like the color? Just because it's on sale? That doesn't make it a bargain.
Her mommy must have forgotten to tell her that little piece of info.
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From:badbadivy
Date:January 30th, 2008 03:36 pm (UTC)
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Which might explain why knitting is "cooler". There is a wealth of gorgeous and well-fitting knit sweater patterns. Too bad crochet designers don't seem to have the same respect of their own art.

For REAL. I inherited a ton of my grandma's crocheting and knitting magazines from the 1960s and 1970s and the crocheted clothing is just...eww. Out of hundreds of mags, I found ONE sweater I liked enough to crochet. I saw tons of stuff I wanted to make, if only I was a knitter. Sigh.
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From:eris_devotee
Date:January 30th, 2008 03:47 pm (UTC)
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Well, the problem, too, is with crocheters. I write sweater patterns and although a lot of crocheters ooh and ahh when I post the photos, they also mention how complicated it all looks.

A good sweater pattern, with good sizing instructions, is going to run 8-10 pages. Crocheters run scared from that stuff, and embrace quick projects that use q-hooks.
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From:badbadivy
Date:January 30th, 2008 04:03 pm (UTC)
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Oh, I agree. I'm a big fan of your patterns- I showed my mom your spiderweb skirt pattern that I'm working on now, and she said it looked horribly complex. o.O What?

What kills me is that this is the same woman who has made 40 million doilies. To me, they seem unnecessarily complex, so you can end up with a circle to put on your table? What?
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From:eris_devotee
Date:January 30th, 2008 05:45 pm (UTC)

corrected link

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That's especially funny because the lacy part of the Spiderweb Skirt is really just one great big doily.

It made me bummed for a while, but the market for crochet patterns is what it is. Some desigers, like croshay and skamamawa, have a real knack for coming up with fabulous projects that also meet the desires of crocheters. So these days, I'm more a part of the support system for their work (directly and indirectly) - because I'm just not good at those coming up with those sorts of patterns - but I still like to be a part of the crochet world.
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From:badbadivy
Date:January 30th, 2008 05:48 pm (UTC)

Re: corrected link

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Well, count me as a fan of yours. I adore your how-to stitch videos- I danced with glee to see I hold my crochet hook the same way you do. I've been told for years that I'm holding it wrong, so I was glad to see someone else does it the only way that feels comfortable for me!
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From:eris_devotee
Date:January 30th, 2008 05:54 pm (UTC)

Re: corrected link

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I'll keep making stitch videos! I am going to put out another series very soon - there are some basics that I am missing (like hdc), and I want to get into the differences between bobbles, clusters, puffs & popcorns.

And I am of the opinion that the "pencil" hold for crochet hooks is absolutely 100% wrong. You can't do front-post stitches that way, and you totally can't do Tunisian that way. The only reason it exists is because women wanted to look more "dainty" while they crocheted.
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From:eris_devotee
Date:January 31st, 2008 10:21 pm (UTC)

Re: corrected link

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do you hold it that way for front-post stitches, or Tunisian stitching, assuming you do either of those?
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From:eris_devotee
Date:January 30th, 2008 06:22 pm (UTC)

Re: corrected link

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It's not a worthwhile endeavor - which is why I stopped. The amount of time it takes to write a good pattern and size it - is a lot of time. Crochet *has* to have the modifications I include in order to get a good fit, because it doesn't have the stretch of knit so there's no little forgiveness (and attention to stuff like armholes & neck shaping, so that it will go over your head, are important, too)
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From:croshay
Date:January 30th, 2008 06:24 pm (UTC)

Re: corrected link

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deleted. I'm trying to stop being such a whiner.
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From:eris_devotee
Date:January 30th, 2008 06:28 pm (UTC)

Re: corrected link

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I didn't think what you wrote was whining at all - but an acknowledgement of the work that goes into clothing patterns. They *aren't* profitable because there isn't the same call for them as knitted sweater patterns, and without volume sales - you cant just put the 100 hours or so it takes to get a sweater pattern up to par if that's the business you are in.

Believe me - I learned this the long, hard way.
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From:croshay
Date:February 1st, 2008 02:19 pm (UTC)

Re: corrected link

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basically I just don't have the free time to dick around with garment design for such a tiny check.. so I get jealous of the people who can afford it, which turns to anger when this is the best that we get.
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From:eris_devotee
Date:February 1st, 2008 02:24 pm (UTC)

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well, I'm with you up until the jealous part. Jealousy gets in the way of being happy for other people, so I want no part of it in my life.
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From:croshay
Date:February 1st, 2008 02:36 pm (UTC)

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it's a symptom. and yeah, its taking some joy out of my life, so I'm working on it.
but first I have a big stack of hats to finish stitching, then I'm going to go stand in the wet cold all day listening to them.. well, you know.
still, there are many worse things.
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From:eris_devotee
Date:February 1st, 2008 02:52 pm (UTC)

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Yeah, but everyone has their shit. Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there...

my ego is huge, I suppose, because there's no one I'd want to trade lives with. My talent, my wit, my looks - they get me by, and I wouldn't want to be anyone else. as such, I can't afford what it takes from my life to worry about what other people have and what I do not - that's not my ruler for any-fucking-thing. because there is no end to it - there is always someone out there that has something you don't, something that looks shiny and wonderful.

and besides, good and bad, I am where I am through my own doing.

I don't know. Jealousy scares the crap out of me. My mom and sister are jealous people, and it's why I can't be near them, ever, at all. Even my blonde hair makes them insane, let alone that I'm skinny/smart/creative... I just see jealousy as a thief of bright-goodness.
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From:croshay
Date:February 1st, 2008 03:26 pm (UTC)

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I get jealous of other peoples opportunity to work. I feel really limited opportunity -wise and I get frustrated. of course I know its my own doing. I dont want anyone elses life, I just want a little more free time to be creative where I'm not under so much pressure to be productive.
maybe envy is a better word for what I mean. I dont want to take anything away from anyone else.

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From:croshay
Date:February 1st, 2008 05:27 pm (UTC)

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there, see? whining again. really what it is, is that I feel guilty because I spent the week messing around with bobble stitches instead of sweatshopping and I only have a very small pile of hats for the people.
..and they're gonna be pissed.
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From:eris_devotee
Date:February 2nd, 2008 03:50 pm (UTC)

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hey - I get that, but that's also a gift - that there are only 24 hours in a day. You do have actual limitations. That's the biggest reason why the jeanlousy/envy thing is a trap, a deadly one - everyone has limitations, and no one within the circle of people either one of *us* has access to has anything close to unlimited resources or power.

so, that being the case - my measure is only with respect to myself. Did I do the best job I could today? When the answer is yes, I can feel truly good about myself, and when the answer is no, it's no one's fault but my own.

But I've been really hurt by the jealousy of others, so it's a hot button issue for me, you might say.
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From:eris_devotee
Date:February 2nd, 2008 03:46 pm (UTC)

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jealousy/envy - it's yourself you take away from. Anyone wants talk to me about how rough their day was - I'll listen. Anyone else wants to talk about "why don't I have it easier" and I'll probably just roll my eyes.

One is for real, the other is a diversion.
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From:brewergnome
Date:January 30th, 2008 03:53 pm (UTC)
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We got into a discussion about that on one of the Ravelry design threads. There was a woman who makes some beautifully fitted sweaters but was asking about whether she should sacrifice the fit to have fancier stitching (she works mostly in DC).

Was a brief discussion but I maintain most people would rather sacrifice their crochet cables if it means they can have a sweater that fits their bust and doesn't look like a bloody bell.

That thing? A good start. The sort of good start you go, "Oh, nice! I only have to make three more changes to the pattern and THEN it will be usable by other people!"
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From:eris_devotee
Date:January 30th, 2008 03:57 pm (UTC)
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You don't have to sacrifice stitches for fit, though - it just makes it a little more complicated to work out the pattern, but I always incorporate texture into my designs... that's the *point* of using crochet over knit... texture.
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From:brewergnome
Date:January 30th, 2008 03:58 pm (UTC)
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Oh I agree. Totally. I was just saying in the hypothetical where you did, I'd rather have fit.

I need to practice more with texture.
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From:croshay
Date:January 30th, 2008 04:15 pm (UTC)
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I've been waiting to see the results of this design.. so far has anyone finished it? I mean, completed it and attached the sleeves?

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From:croshay
Date:January 30th, 2008 04:25 pm (UTC)
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oh wait this is crochet snark!! I thought I was responding in your journal!

I'm too nice to snark on Chloe!
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From:eris_devotee
Date:January 30th, 2008 04:54 pm (UTC)
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I know - I'm totally EVIL. I'm snarking a pregnant friend.

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From:croshay
Date:January 30th, 2008 04:34 pm (UTC)
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okay there are no sleeves.. somehow I thought there were long sleeves.. but yeah, you can tell from the photo in the book there are going to be a few problems with the fit .. http://www.interweave.com/crochet/books/CrochetMe/page16.asp

also interesting that the two detail shots are exactly the same, and really don't show an detail at all. when I see that kind of photo editing in a crochet book I lose confidence in the integrity of the design itself.


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From:eris_devotee
Date:January 30th, 2008 04:56 pm (UTC)
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gah - that graphic design hurts my head. That's the exact same sort of thing they tried to do with In The Loop (well, at least that book has some white space. they even cluttered up the area behind text with copies of lace and stuff)
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From:dymphna79
Date:January 30th, 2008 05:56 pm (UTC)
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There are a few completed ones on Ravelry. At least a couple mention they also had a problem with extra material at the back.
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From:croshay
Date:January 30th, 2008 06:07 pm (UTC)
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I took a look at those.. I guess it looked to me like they should have had sleeves, but everyone sort of gave up.
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From:oaktrees
Date:January 30th, 2008 05:49 pm (UTC)
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If I am going to take the time to make myself clothing, it needs to fit as good as something I bought couture and had tailored to my body. That, to me, is the whole point of making my own clothing - getting the quality I could not otherwise afford.

Amen, sister. This is what drew me to you in the first place. I was amazed, in a snotty, superior, it's not possible way that you were fitting with crochet. I just didn't think it was possible. My approach had always been to crochet yardage then sew it up like I would any yardage if I wanted a garment that fit.
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From:eris_devotee
Date:January 30th, 2008 06:00 pm (UTC)
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Well - my main reason for coming up with the way to shape stuff in crochet is because I hate the bulk of seams (in crochet or knit). If a seam doesn't need to function as a flexible joint (like the underarm of a fitted sleeve), then I try to figure out a way to do it in one piece.

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From:perpet
Date:January 30th, 2008 09:08 pm (UTC)
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I read that entry and my head nearly exploded. A color she doesn't actually like, a massive adjustment she had to make, and the pictures to show her modifications don't actually show anything at all.

I find the discussion of sweater fit really interesting, as I've been working my versions from the bottom up and working specifically with my own measurements. I've had a couple of "crap" moments [the sleeve/back incident with 4.0], but nothing to the extent of what happened with Kim. I don't know if working from the bottom up makes a difference or just not attempting to make it fit anyone else is making it easier. It's also possible that I could be relieved a bit too soon, as 5.0 is still in the works.
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From:eris_devotee
Date:January 30th, 2008 09:40 pm (UTC)
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Sizing the pattern has a lot to do with it. It shouldn't be that difficult, if one is actually trying, to fit one's own body.

I've wondered about that sweater that you keep remaking... I think I'm just not fond of the choices you've made for yarns, as I don't find them good for sweaters. I mean... you say you like it, but to me, it looks like a great big washcloth. You'd have less problems with shaping if the fabric itself had some stretch. Usually the only clothing that is super-stiff like that is outerwear... for a reason.
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From:perpet
Date:January 30th, 2008 10:01 pm (UTC)
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I like the washcloth sweater more for the details than the actual shape of the thing. I like the neck and the sleeves, and I'm pleased with it because it is, at least, vaguely sweater-shaped, which is something I'm still fascinated I can do. The reason I'm making it in a stiff yarn for this round is so that I can very clearly see the shape of what I'm making, as it's the first time I'm really attempting shaping. I'm a visual person, so being able to see the shape very clearly will help me when I sit down with a proper sweater yarn to make it again.

I'm also trying to use a lot of different yarns so that I can really see how different yarns work up and drape. I know the stiff yarn is a bad sweater yarn, but by working with it, I can really see it and understand why.
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From:its_me_cathy
Date:February 21st, 2008 04:33 pm (UTC)

I've been wanting to say this for a long time

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I just can't believe she got the IK Crochet gig. First they hire Eunny Jang for the knit magazine, an amazing designer and technical knitter... then KW for Crochet. That is like making a movie and hiring Alan Rickman and Pauly Shore.
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From:kellinator
Date:February 24th, 2008 08:22 am (UTC)

Re: I've been wanting to say this for a long time

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Don't you wish LJ had an "agree" button like Ravelry?
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From:pewter_wings
Date:April 14th, 2008 05:57 am (UTC)

Re: I've been wanting to say this for a long time

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Late to the party, but oh so apropos.

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